Tom Cruise character is just like the aliens

[courtney loveless]

That comparison works too, but I don't know that the Martians cared--or for that matter noticed--that the Earthlings appeared intelligent any more than we care that insects are intelligent. Would it change your dislike of insects to know that they exhibited some "higher consciousness that allows them to make abstract decisions"? It wouldn't affect mine.

I mean we watch bees communicate in some complicated dance form. We know ants communicate in some way because one ant can bring the whole hive to a location of food. As humans (ok, to avoid a blanket statement, I'll say most humans ) we look at those forms of communication and because human intelligence is so much farther advanced, we determine that it is insignificant. It seems to me to be very much what the martians did. Their level of intelligence was so advanced, that the "so-called actions" (name that quote) of the humans seemed insignificant.

I'd be inclined to believe that the aliens didn't care. I mean, inspite of their apparent intelligence with communicating, we still exterminate bees. I wouldn't say we view such communication as insignificant but more simplistic, novel, or even quaint. Its more of an attititude of,"Oh, look at the way they communicate!! That's NIFTY!!! But they are still pests, so BUG BOMB THE ENTIRE LOT!" As opposed to,"Hmm..they communicate..So What? Kill'em all."

[paul]

Agreed. This is why I felt like a martian when I exterminated all the bugs in my house a couple of days ago. Hey. It's me or them. I'm picking me!

[daveloveless]

I personally am glad that you picked you, Paul. I mean, how would you ever explain to Christina that you guys had to move out because you gave the house to the bugs. Plus, who would pay the rent?

[paul]

<grin> True, but you're making my point! We assume that we have all rights and the bugs have no rights. After all, from our view we are so superior in every way, we force the bugs to live our way (i.e. outside) or not at all. Isn't that exactly what the martians were doing? Assuming they were so superior that they could force the humans to live their way or not at all?

[daveloveless]

So, maybe turning this discussion a little bit, what exactly is superior? You say in every way, but (not trying to split hairs here), I never heard of an ant that commits crime, gossips, or litters. I've never heard of ants being jealous, petty, and vindictive. Sure, ants have wars, but the point is that they don't among their own community. In that light, ants are superior.

So, again, what exactly makes us more superior than them? I personally believe that it is a strong language (ants talk, but we can't begin to call it conversation), memory, and emotional ties.

[paul]

But don't we really feel we are superior? I mean, can you get a group of people to honestly admit that ants are superior to humans?

And just becase we don't understand ant culture doesn't mean that ants don't have thier own sort of social deviants. It is unfair to impose human social deviance mores on the ant community.

But I still think that you will be hard-pressed to find many humans who think that ants are superior to humans.

This discussion could morph into a "the Giver" discussion. Just because the ant community doesn't have what we consider to be "crime" doesn't mean it doesn't have its own problems or that it is perfect.

[courtney loveless]

But don't we really feel we are superior? I mean, can you get a group of people to honestly admit that ants are superior to humans?

And just becase we don't understand ant culture doesn't mean that ants don't have thier own sort of social deviants. It is unfair to impose human social deviance mores on the ant community.

Most people do feel superior simply due to the technological advances that humans have made. While ants may be able to think, you're not going to find an ant(unless its a Disney ant) who invents things or even conceptualizes something as complex as DNA. What makes us stand apart from the animal world is our insatiable desire to know, to explore, to create, and to better ourselves and those around us. We have this drive to try to change things around us, to progress. Animals and insects are driven purely on survival. Unless there is mutation or their environment changes in such a way that change is forced upon them, there is very little change or creativity.

We also allow ants, earwigs (for the most part), and other insect life to live on its own. As long as it doesn't threaten, disturb, or otherwise bother us, we tend to let it be. In some cases we actually foster insect colonies near or in human colonies. (Bees, silk worms, etc)

What they aliens were doing was a complete destruction of mankind and then a subjugation of those who were left. Very much like a beekeeper might do when he is trying to take a wild swarm and tame it. It wasn't a total destruction because they needed us. They recognized that need and did just enough to break our defenses and make us more tractable.

[paul]

Most people do feel superior simply due to the technological advances that humans have made. While ants may be able to think, you're not going to find an ant(unless its a Disney ant) who invents things or even conceptualizes something as complex as DNA. What makes us stand apart from the animal world is our insatiable desire to know, to explore, to create, and to better ourselves and those around us. We have this drive to try to change things around us, to progress. Animals and insects are driven purely on survival. Unless there is mutation or their environment changes in such a way that change is forced upon them, there is very little change or creativity.

I think we quite agree. I'm only adding that the martians may have looked at humans as we look at animals.

My first example was insects because I used the "black cloud" called Raid against the insects at my houe the other day. However, maybe a better example of how martians viewed humans is how humans view cows. We pen them up, we brand them with hot irons, we use their milk, we breed them, we take away their young, we prod them with electric devices to keep them in line, and eventually, we kill most of them for food. There isn't a whole lot the cow can do to stop it.

So while the insect example doesn't work completley, (and actually, the cow example isn't perfect either, but it may be closer) my point is more that in one sense we should be able to understand the maritans for what they did to the humans, because it is similar to how we treat animals.

(The agrument that such an intellectually advanced race as the martinas seemed to be should have recognized human intelligence and respected it is more of a Star Trek discussion, since the martians apparently didn't have a "Prime Directive".)

[courtney loveless]

"Its life Jim, but not as we know it!" (Spock, original Star Trek series)