Maybe not dead? (yeah right!)

[daveloveless]

I just heard some really really strong evidence saying that Dumbledore is possibly not dead. It has holes, but it is pretty interesting.

On page 138 of HP 1 (I think that is the right page), Snape is doing that "Clearly fame isn't everything" speech to Harry and one of the things he asks Harry to identify causes sleep so deep that it appears that the person is dead.

Very very interesting.

Now for the holes...

When would Dumbledore have taken the potion? How would Dumbledore know he would have needed the potion on that particular night? Where is Dumbledore now? Wouldn't the fall from the tower still have killed him unless he was thrown from the tower first, used his own power to slow the fall, took the potion at the bottom, and then played dead. Except that doesn't explain his body position. I seem to remember someone saying that he had a leg bent out of a normal position.

On the other hand, it does help us see how people could have been fooled into thinking that he really was dead. It does provide a "body" to look at.

Very very interesting.

[peggy]

What about the possibility that Dumbeldore has done exactly what he has accused Voldemort of doing, that is, split his soul and put half in a Horcrux, in order to achieve imortality?

[daveloveless]

I wondered that for a time, but then I figured it wasn't likely since murder is a key ingredient in creating a horcrux and it doesn't seem likely that Dumbledore would do that.

On the other hand, we do know that dumbledore had a close working relationship with Nicholas Flamel and that Flamel did develop a sorcerer's stone. It seems entirely likely (in my opinion) that Dumbledore and Flamel could have dabbled a bit more in "life preserving" magic outside of the stone.

[paul]

When would Dumbledore have taken the potion? How would Dumbledore know he would have needed the potion on that particular night? Where is Dumbledore now? Wouldn't the fall from the tower still have killed him unless he was thrown from the tower first, used his own power to slow the fall, took the potion at the bottom, and then played dead. Except that doesn't explain his body position. I seem to remember someone saying that he had a leg bent out of a normal position.

On the other hand, it does help us see how people could have been fooled into thinking that he really was dead. It does provide a "body" to look at.

Remember that Dumbledore's wand flew over the edge right after Dumbledore immobilized Harry. So when Dumbledore went flying over the edge of the tower, he was falling towards his wand. Who knows if Dumbledore had some way of getting his wand back while he was in mid-flight. However, we never hear of his wand again.

Second, I would remind you that while we have a body to look at on the night of the apparent murder, we never see his body again. Harry sees the coffin (for lack of a better word) at the funeral, and says that he knew it contained Dumbledore's body. But we never actually SEE the body at the funeral, or, for that matter, anytime after the alleged murder. Read that passage again, if you have time. Harry makes all kinds of assumptions about Dumbledore's death. But Harry's assumptions must be challenged, because they are often incomplete or incorrect.

On the other hand, we also have to remember that Harry was only released from Dumbledore's immobilizing charm when Dumbledore died. Would a faked death have released Harry from the charm? Probably not. However, if Dumbledore was able to retrieve his wand, he could have released Harry from the bottom of the tower before arranging his "display".

We should remember how Slughorn, in the beginning of book 6, used magic to fake his death. I think that JKR often uses clues like that as some kind of foreshadowing.

There are arguments on both sides, aren’t there!

[daveloveless]

Very interesting. I hadn't realized that he was falling towards the wand. With as powerful of a wizard as Dumbledore is, it is possible that he doesn't necessarily need his wand to perform some magic (Accio Wand!!)

That is true about the body not being seen. However, it is just as possible that that really was the body that was put in the tomb. After all, the tomb would be the perfect place to hide a Sleeping Beauty. No one would "stumble" across it if you know what I mean.

That Immobilizing Charm is a big one. If we follow Okum's Razor it is much easier to accept that Harry was released because Dumbledore died. However, it is just as likely that Dumbledore could have released him.

And you are most definitely right about Slughorn. JKR often does do similar things to other characters or at least mention the end result early on. Brilliant thoughts, Paul. Just smashing.

[paul]

Stop that! I'm blushing!

[daveloveless]

Oh stop being silly, ya silly.

[daveloveless]

So I just heard another interesting theory. We know that Snape and Dumbledore had an argument where Dumbledore insisted that Snape do something. We could interpret that multiple ways, so I'm just going to leave it at the fact that Dumbledore makes a strong emphasis on the fact that Snape promised to do it.

Now, we know that JKR often puts similar situations in the book twice as a type of foreshadowing. Could it be that the promise that Dumbledore is talking about and the reason that Dumbledore trusts Snape so much is because Snape made an Unbreakable Vow with Dumbledore regarding giving up the cause of the Death Eaters? We don't know much about the Unbreakable Vow, and for all we know, it is more common than we imagine. Dumbledore's insistence that Snape obey his orders could be as much a reminder of the promise as saving Snape's life because of the Vow or Vows. '

Second question, what happens when you make two Unbreakable Vows that contradict each other? It would seem that if there were two vows, Snape would be trapped in a very difficult spot: Allegiance to Dumbledore and a Promise to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed.

Thoughts?

[daveloveless]

Okay, so I keep finding little tidbits that convince me that Snape is good and that Dumbledore is alive.

This one goes off of the theory that Snape did give Dumbledore that sleeping potion that can fake death. Wasn't Dumbledore's portrait in the headmaster chamber sleeping? Couldn't that be a representation of Dumbledore's current state?

The more I think about it, the heavier the evidence is in favor of Dumbledore being alive. That makes me feel better.

[paul]

Just remember, I retained all gloating and movie rights, and you promised to crown me "Supreme Mugwump" and I'm going to relish in the glory of knowing I was the first on the bookclub site to predict it.

[daveloveless]

It's all about you, isn't it?